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Whats your view on abortion?
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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 13:56

Oh, Wight, check out the ghost thread again, for a laugh and if you fancy really tearing into nonsense couched as logical argument. TTFN



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 13:55

Agreed. They very carefully kill them and eat them, for the most part, if the injury is serious. Certainly nothing careless in it.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 13:17


puff_cake write:
By nature, i mean a state without the intervention of man's technology and industry. A pure state of nature, unaltered by human hands. I regard the human species as unnatural.



Oh, because getting rid of man's technology and industry would be a good idea, really, read your Hobbes.

Remove our artificial and, yes, 'unnatural' society, and we're left as primitive beings with a social structure similar to apes.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 13:17


puff_cake write:
Different animals have different young rearing strategies, whilst some may take the actions you described, the intelligent mammals, such as elephants, care for all their young, both lame and healthy with equal devotion. As i believe that humans are an intelligent species, it would be right for them to take a similiar approach. Human life is precious and should not be flushed away because a woman isn't ready for a child. She should have thought about that before she had sex without a condom. I understand that every case isn't that simple, e.g raipes and all but i'm speaking as a whole. Just because the option is there, doesn't mean they have to use it.



Now you're just deluding yourself. Infanticide has always been the natural way to treat unwanted children, it's seen in all of our earliest societies, it's seen in most mammals.

Embyros are not precious, they're not rare and easy to create, they are alive, and are genetically human, but thier not intellegent sentient creatures and exist on a similar level to bacteria.

If you want to make a rational arguement as to why people should care about embyros, do so, but referances to embyros being 'precious' is merely circular reasonings, and referances to nature are not only flawed but inaccurate.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:30


Gaidheal write:
Actually, animals take pains to ensure the young they can support survive. They routinely kill of any weak or surplus individuals and usually eat them (too many nutrients to waste). As for the appeal to 'nature' that's total bullshit. It is no more natural than what we do; nature is determined by the actions of those within it. If we all do something, it becomes "part of the natural order" there is no 'nature' as a concept, it is simply an overused term to cover the idea of what happens when we do not intervene in an event. Nothing more.



Yes, I get fed up with the useage of 'natural' and 'nature' as useful concepts, pretty awful concepts really.

They rely on that same seperation of man and nature that we were recently accused off notable :o)

And the assumption that 'natural' equals 'good' really amazes me.

It's a worse concept than 'normal' for use in ethical discussions.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:25

Actually, animals take pains to ensure the young they can support survive. They routinely kill of any weak or surplus individuals and usually eat them (too many nutrients to waste). As for the appeal to 'nature' that's total bullshit. It is no more natural than what we do; nature is determined by the actions of those within it. If we all do something, it becomes "part of the natural order" there is no 'nature' as a concept, it is simply an overused term to cover the idea of what happens when we do not intervene in an event. Nothing more.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:25


puff_cake write:
Yeah i admitted their were exceptions but nmy point was, animals take great pains to ensure their young survive, eggs hatch etc cos its biological. The meaning of life is to reproduce and pass on genes. To deny this, is to deny living.


Not exceptions, it's the normal thing for creatures in the wild to do with unwanted children.

Trying to find 'the meaning of life' in natural is flawed. If you acept evolution nature is merely a aimless and meaningless product of unthinking natural patterns, there's no meaning to be found there.

In fact, if we look at 'meaning' it's not to be found outside the person, things don't mean anything objectivly, they mean things to people. the meaning of life is what you take it to mean.

The meaning of my life is not to reproduce, I, like many others before me, may not have any children at all and still live a meaningful life.

Besides, sometimes passing on one's genes is better done through aborting children now to put you in a better position to pass them on later, foreplanning is always good.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:11

"It's a fairly recent idea that infanticide is somehow immoral."

I'd just like to note in addition to this that this means that infanticide natural and the value we place on babies as well as embyros and foetuses is actually unnatural and 'against nature'

Most of our morality is modern and does not relate to how moral values work in nature, but if you want to devolve to a more natural state, then just think about what that would involve.

Reading some Hobbes would help with this.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:09


puff_cake write:
Women for centuries have harped on about the male dominated society and inequality but a birth is a special event - it takes two to tango. In the wild, an animal would not conceive of aborting its children (well mostly, however, with everything there is always exceptions) that's why i see it as unnatural. Anything against nature is wrong.


Go become a Catholic then and leave us alone, make sure to destroy your computer to be consistant.

Yes, animals don't engage in such forethought and make use of modern surgery to reach thier ai-ms, so what?

We don't live in a 'natural' state anymore and I sure as hell wouldn't want to.

I am quite happy to adjust my body and the enviroment around me to my needs and it's natural state can go screw itself.

Of course, notably, animals do kill thier young. If an animal has too many children, or if it doesn't think it can rear those children anymore, it'll eat them. Before we had modern abortion techniques, the human norm was to kill unwanted children.

It's a fairly recent idea that infanticide is somehow immoral.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 12:05


puff_cake write:
Women for centuries have harped on about the male dominated society and inequality but a birth is a special event - it takes two to tango. In the wild, an animal would not conceive of aborting its children (well mostly, however, with everything there is always exceptions) that's why i see it as unnatural. Anything against nature is wrong.



um, what qualifies as nature? we're part of nature too. And I seriously doubt animals such as horses etc have much choice in the matter of terminating a pregnancy or not.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 11:31


puff_cake write:
I'm sorry to hear that. I just don't think its fair on men who want children and their partners keep having abortions to spite them and because they can.



How's this for an arguement, if the men don't like it they shouldn't be screwing girls who will do it

It's the girl's body, it might be nice if men could have a choice but it's out of thier hands, next time they should be more careful about who they impregnate.

Keep thier legs closed as pro-lifers keep talking about, if they've impregnated someone that doesn't give them the right to inflict thier own primitive moral beliefs on the woman they've impregnated.



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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 09:28

I am not sorry to say that whomever got pregnant....unless they are some sort of F***ing wh*ore...its the persons decision and should not be made to feel like garbage for having a brain in their own head and using it...as long as they make the decision that is correct for them.....I was adopted and honestly...i wish i had never been born...i cannot stand so much that goes on around me...but some things are meant to be.Theres many kids that dont make it in the adoption place....way too many are put there.....ive seen some and it bothers me to no end how much some of those kids are in torment and pain....always wondering why the blood parents never wanted them...and they have to deal with that the rest of their life....it hurts really....and sometimes i wonder what happened to the ones who were my blood family...

  


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Posted on Fri, May 06, 2005 05:52


jadestarr write:
dah!!! but i'm thinking of those tht can't have children and would do anything to have a child. personally i know quite a few. heck my boss just adopted a wonderful, adorable little girl! whom he adores!



There's a surplus of children needing adoption so there's no need to create more. The main problems being that everyone insists that thier children must be the fruit of thier own loins, to the point of going to expensive and extravagant lengths to create children in thier labs, rather than adopt, and when they do adopt, only the babies with no 'defects' or difficulties get taken and any one that grows long enough to become a child doesn't have a hope in hell of being adopted.

Be well,



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Posted on Thu, May 05, 2005 17:17

The fact that someone else wants a child (whether or not they able) is irrelevant to someone else's right to choose.



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Posted on Thu, May 05, 2005 15:40


Gaidheal write:

jadestarr write:
true wright but instead of aborting there is the option for those tht believe not to harm an unborn in whtever stage, is adoption as for the morning after pill i wouldn't take it unless i was a victim of a criminal nature(for so many reason).



Which is fatalism based on the mistaken idea that a foetus is somehow something with rights, etc. Adoption implies giving birth, the whole point of abortion and contraception is to avoid precisely that outcome.

dah!!! but i'm thinking of those tht can't have children and would do anything to have a child. personally i know quite a few. heck my boss just adopted a wonderful, adorable little girl! whom he adores!



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Posted on Thu, May 05, 2005 15:36

oh yes wight i believe it is in the best interest of the womans health (do or die)to go ahead w/ it. but i think wht most peeps forget is tht kids are having kids too. wow wht a mess w/ tht childs body to have a child at a young age! but alas in some states thy are of sound mind to make tht decision to have a child or abort it. yes i too am on both sides of the fence w/ this but for many different reasons thn most. i'm not trying to push any reason to or not to ,just to think about it. i know all about the children having children deal i was one! i don't regret the having thm just staying w/ the fool tht is thier father, thank goddess i saw the light and got out of his life.



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Posted on Thu, May 05, 2005 09:30


Wight84 write:

everythingthatswrong write:
I like that pic too wight, I can actually say that one gets to me. If you know what I mean......



Thanks :oD

:oD

See, isn't everyone complementing me soo much more interesting than talking about Abortion? :oD yay! :o)



LOL

It is a good pic *nod*



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Posted on Thu, May 05, 2005 09:12


everythingthatswrong write:
I like that pic too wight, I can actually say that one gets to me. If you know what I mean......



Thanks :oD

:oD

See, isn't everyone complementing me soo much more interesting than talking about Abortion? :oD yay! :o)



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Posted on Wed, May 04, 2005 17:16

I like that pic too wight, I can actually say that one gets to me. If you know what I mean......

  


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Posted on Tue, May 03, 2005 11:27


OpheliaImmortal write:
Wight you are a gorgeous person in both pictures. I was jealous that you were infact prettier than I in your other one lol.



Don't be silly, females always look better than males regardless of what they're dressed in :o)

Just be glad you were born into the more aesthetically pleasing sex :o)

Be well :o)



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